Landscape, Nature And Travel Photography

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Earlier this week in my blog post Manipulation or Fact? The Politics of Photo Manipulation I discussed the most recent instance of photography being used to make a political statement and/or influence US Presidential elections. The latest instance of this has centered around Republican Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin with her likeness portrayed on the body of a woman wearing an American Flag bikini holding a rifle. Not long after the release of my blog post I was able to discuss this photo and contemporary cultural photographic & Internet trends with the creator of this photograph. Below is the transcript of our September 8th discussion:

Note: At this time only the transcript is being released. Please add a comment to this post if you would like to hear this in podcast format. I’m currently seeking permission of the interviewee for permission to release this in audio format and your expressed interest may help secure that permission.

Jim M. Goldstein
Today’s conversation is about photo editing and satire and just how photographs can be used on the Internet with and without a photographer’s permission. And one of the more interesting examples of this that’s come to light in this election between Senator Obama and Senator McCain is a photograph of now-announced Sarah Palin who is Republican Vice Presidential candidate and how her face was put on a photo of a gun-wielding woman in an American flag bikini. And with good fortune I have had the ability to connect with the person who created the image and her name is Naomi. And the original photographer’s name at least on Flickr is Doctor Casino and I’ll provide a link of that.
Original photo: elizabeth – american flag bikini rifle

So, Naomi, thank you very much for talking to me about your work.

Naomi
Thank you.

Jim M. Goldstein
And I had a couple of questions, but first – I don’t know if you wanted to give any kind of general background to who you are. But if you feel comfortable with that, feel free.

Naomi
Okay, my name is Naomi. I currently reside in New York, New York. I am a former web editor of three years. Recently laid off in the wake of this horrible recession. I am also a grad student currently working towards a Masters degree in communications.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay and I am kind of curious, as a lot of people are, as to how and why you made the photo.

Naomi
Well I’ll give you a little bit of the back story. I am recently laid off. I have a lot of time on my hands and right after McCain announced his running mate, his second fiddle, much like every other American, I had no idea who this woman was and I spent much of my Saturday afternoon Googling her.

And at the time the only information that was available was that she was a former beauty queen. She was a lifetime member of the NRA. There are these – also these allegations about the possible abuse of power, that she is staunchly pro-life and also for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

And based on all these factoids I formed a basic idea of who this woman was. And it sort of scared me that this woman is a heartbeat away from the Presidency. And I had come across Doctor Casino’s photo in the past. And I thought it was rather funny and I thought that pretty much summed up this image of Sarah Palin that I had in my mind.

And I located the photo, located another image of Sarah Palin. I just kind of went through Google image search and tried to locate something with the same shading and angle. And in about 15 minutes time between searching for the images and putting together the images to posting it on Facebook, it took about 15 minutes.

And I posted it on a private Facebook blog with full disclosure that it was a Photoshopped image and the result of a boring Saturday afternoon with Photoshop at my fingertips. So that’s the back story.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay and so this was just like a random – like you had seen the photo before and it was just the ease of searching for these images. There was no difficulty there?

Naomi
None whatsoever, I mean I had come across the photo before. So I might have had it as a favorite in my Flickr account and I just put it together. There was really not much thought put into it at that point.

Jim M. Goldstein
[3:59] And because it was a private blog on Facebook, I mean, did you have a lot of friends that had access to it or it was at a pretty small pool of people?

Naomi
I have about 290 friends who I know through – all of which I know through either work or school.

Jim M. Goldstein
Is your guess that maybe just someone just thought it was hilarious and then just copied it and passed it on or?

Naomi
I actually spoke with a friend tonight, I just had school tonight. And she told me that her and her friends – she posted it to her Facebook and then she used it in an email and then forwarded it to her friends and her friends forwarded it to their friends and so on and so forth. And from what I understand it was passed around via email more so than any other medium.

Jim M. Goldstein
And this was – what day was this? Is it like the 31st?

Naomi
The 30th.

Jim M. Goldstein
The 30th of August. Okay and I think I saw the image in a blog post I think on the 1st. So were you aware of any – what was the first blog? Or how did you find out that this image had been distributed or had been posted on a variety of blogs or websites?

Naomi
Funny story. My brother called me at 3 AM on Wednesday morning to let me know that I had been on The Huffington Post on the front page and from there I just did a Google search and found hundreds of cases – hundred of blogs and publications, many of them right wing that had posted the image. And I also found a couple of sites that really went into the whole debunking of the image, which tickled me because I had no idea that it would be taken for an authentic image.

Jim M. Goldstein
Yeah, well I think a lot of people whether – no matter what their stance, I think whether they have the leaning that they don’t like her or they like her, that in some regards this photo seemed to go both ways unlike other photos in the past which were overtly negative. What was your take on that? Did you find that some people were…

Naomi
Really?

Jim M. Goldstein
…using it in a positive context? Or did you see that most people were using it negatively?

Naomi
Well, definitely the right wing blogs took it as, you know, something – they perceived it as something that left wingers put out there as fact. And for people of – based on the image, you can obviously tell I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum. For those left wing or left of center publications, they were using it positively. They knew it was a parody from the start. And I don’t think anyone assumed it was authentic. At least for these publications. I think it was mostly in the form of like, emails or comments that people were actually thinking that it was real.

Jim M. Goldstein
So do you find it surprising that some people out there are gullible enough to think that it’s real?

Naomi
Definitely, I do! But that’s only because I’m the one that created it and I can see how the shadows are slightly off or her head is a little disproportionate and all these different things. But it’s also my perspective.

Jim M. Goldstein
And that being said, I should say that I’m just not blindly assuming that you’re the creator of this image. You actually sent me the Photoshop file…

Naomi
Right.

Jim M. Goldstein
…and I’ve done a pretty exact comparison of a sampling of images that I found randomly online, and blew things up like 300, 400 percent and can actually see an exact match of alignment and imperfections and I mean it’s a clean match.

Naomi
Do you think it’s a good portrayal or do you think it’s a pretty good Photoshop job yourself?

Jim M. Goldstein
[8:06] Well, I’ll withhold judgment. But the feedback I received from other people is that it’s actually a pretty good job.

Naomi
Good.

Jim M. Goldstein
I think even people that I know that scrutinize things that aren’t – we’ll just say they’re not people that are called into Federal court to test whether an image is real or not. But at first glance, it’s convincing enough. And I think that in this day and age of kind of, shall we say, digital sound bites, whether it’s imagery or video or just audio, I think for the amount that people spend time wise in assessing and absorbing, which is probably a nanosecond, I think it is convincing either way, no matter what your political stance.

Naomi
And I think the other part that’s convincing is that it’s this peer-to-peer spread of the image. I mean people – in this day and age, people will criticize things that politicians say or they’ll criticize a movie because their CGI graphics are not very believable. But if a friend sends you information or if a friend tells you a story, you’re just more apt to believe it.

Jim M. Goldstein
Well it’s also the sources too, I would say, to go even beyond that. I think that if you see it on the Huffington Post or you see it on other media outlets, then that also – the reputation of the source at that level becomes even more of a factor.

Naomi
That’s true. Actually well for the record, The Huffington Post debunked – when they posted the image, they were debunking it as false.

Jim M. Goldstein
All right. Were you aware of any copyright restrictions on the image?

Naomi
I sort of foolishly assumed it was Creative Commons. And also, when I used the image – I’ve used images in the past and I’ve asked for permission. But in this case, I was putting it on my Facebook blog. And I honestly didn’t think it would get out as far as it did. I thought it would just be among my circle of friends. I didn’t think it would be on mugs and stickers on CafePress.

Jim M. Goldstein
In regard to the image search being Creative Commons licensed or all rights reserved, that assumption, was that just because you’ve used Creative Commons images off of Flickr before or…

Naomi
Yes.

Jim M. Goldstein
Any predisposition to whether or not you’re always using images that have Creative Commons or, it was just an assumption?

Naomi
I just feel like I’ve encountered more – a lot of the pictures I encounter are Creative Commons, so I just took for granted that it was a Creative Commons photo. Especially since I had encountered it in the past, so I just assumed that, in my memory, that it was a Creative Commons photo. Which it could have very well have been, I’m not sure if he had changed the rights since this whole thing got out. I know that he’s added a disclaimer to the original photo since, but I’m not sure if he had any disclaimer there in the beginning.

Jim M. Goldstein
He has one comment, like one of the first comments on the image, is somebody asking him if he can get permission to use the photo. And he pretty promptly says no. Was that something that you had seen or had factored in?

Naomi
I guess I hadn’t seen it. I know, it was a fairly sloppy job on my part. But then again, I had no intention of this getting as far as it did.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay. Well I think for the record, he states on the thread here that I think that just because he turned this individual down, didn’t mean that he was opposed to other people using the photo…

Naomi
Right.

Jim M. Goldstein
That was just that one instance, at least.

Naomi
Right.

Jim M. Goldstein
And I think as I’m looking at it now, at least as of this date, which is what, the 8th of September? I think the original image has been viewed close to 130,000 times. So I think that in the process of debunking your photo, this one has been getting a lot of reference.

Another question I had in terms of intellectual property protection is whether or not you’re familiar with Fair Use?

Naomi
[12:34] You know, before this incident, I was not familiar with Fair Use.

Jim M. Goldstein
Is it fair to say that given the aftermath and the explosion of use, that it quickly got you interested in whether…?

Naomi
Definitely, definitely.

Jim M. Goldstein
Given how far things have gone with the image in regard to intellectual property, I’m curious what the takeaways have been for you?

Naomi
You know, I haven’t really thought about that. It’s a good question. I am sort of, this is a very iterative process, I am sort of going with this as it comes along with every time someone asks me a question about this, I – if you get back to me next week, I really have no – can’t think of what the takeaways are apart from “ask for permission”. And be very clear with people where they can distribute the photo. But even so, if this was my – if this were my photo, and I had put this on my Flickr account I am fine with anyone using this image in its new form, so long as they are not portraying it as an authentic image and they are not twisting my intentions and saying that I was trying to make it authentic or that I’m trying to express a stronger opinion than I am.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay. Are you familiar with any other election-time photos that have been edited and any of their history in the past? I know there is one image in particular from the last election that I’ve referenced on my blog and I’m just of kind of curious if – along with this image – and curious if you have any awareness or knowledge of that type of thing?

Naomi
Not really, no I don’t, I mean, apart from parodies or caricatures of politicians, no, none that stand out in my mind.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay. And I am kind of curious, have you received any direct responses to the image, and anything that surprised you in regard to the responses?

Naomi
I have received a lot of direct responses mostly from peers who know me, and are in complete disbelief that I made this because I am not known as – I mean, Photoshop is not really part of my trade. I used to use it for work but sparingly. And a lot shock and disbelief that it’s a fake photo that was done in such a short period of time and that there was really not much thought put into it. I mean, maybe there is a little bit of a gestation with my ideas about this woman over the course a day but yes, there wasn’t that much thought into finding these images and putting them together. It was – the fact that it has reached as far as it has is just a perfect storm of ingredients. No one knew who this woman was. There was a surge in Google search for Sarah Palin pictures and my picture just happened to be right at the top of that search.

Jim M. Goldstein
[16:05] One of the things that’s really the center point of a lot of internet strategy web marketing, is this concept of user generated content. And this would be a poster child for that type of thing in political marketing, because you as somebody that is truly unaffiliated with a particular organization, pulled something together and made something new that is parody. And I am kind of curious based on this, unbeknownst to you, this user generated content if that has brought about any direct impact to you, whether through responses or whether it is through, I don’t know, have you put it out there with other people that you’ve made this image or other people claiming that they’ve made it? Is this open-ended?

Naomi
I know.

Jim M. Goldstein
This user generated content thing. How does that work out for you as the creator?

Naomi
As the creator – I mean people have, I guess, I’m not sure if I understand your question, but yes, I’ve heard that people have been taking credit for the image. I have not been able to find the source of that claim. Also, I mean, I’ve seen people use the image and make different parodies on their own. You know, they’ve put McCain’s head on this image or they’ve gone ahead and made – put Joe Biden in a Speedo. In a sense, so I feel like I’ve started a discussion and the medium for this discussion is these parody images which you know I am not exactly sure how I feel about it, whether it’s adding or detracting from the political conversation or if it’s – ask me about a week ago and I’d be happy that people are getting involved in these political conversations, even if it’s at this level at least it’s something. But now…

Jim M. Goldstein
Well you definitely have created a meme on it. I mean if people are creating parodies on the parody or creating the inverse like with Joe Biden in a Speedo which is scary enough, then it seems that in some regard, not just in political satire in the history of political satire for this election, you’ve pretty much got the ball rolling for a variety of different takes.

Naomi
Right, right, and you know, who’s to say how long it’s going to – I mean like you said, it is a meme, these things tend to burn out within a few days’ time. So we’ll see how long this 15 minutes of fame will last especially for this form of discussion.

Jim M. Goldstein
Do you have an overall take on the experience, has it been stressful? Have you been lying awake at night thinking about what’s happened or just, really it’s no sweat off your back.

Naomi
No, it’s been, well, obviously when I made it and between August 30th and whatever the Wednesday was, when you are unemployed the days kind of just fly. You know this – Saturday, Sunday, Monday – I’m not sure, the five days’ time that it took between the time I made it and the time I found out about it. Obviously I had no feelings about it. When I found out that it had become an Internet phenomenon I was pretty elated that I could create something that had such an impact.

But then now in the sort of aftermath and these past few days one thought that did creep into my mind was the idea that I might have contributed to Palin’s celebrity. Now that, it just – not to get too political but it seems that with every skeleton is coming out of her closet the base is growing and people are rallying around her even harder. Yeah, I feel the people are rallying around her even harder, maybe it’s cognitive dissonance maybe people just love a flawed politician. But I feel like I might have helped jumpstart that.

Jim M. Goldstein
[20:21] You think that you’re adding to her folklore or…

Naomi
I feel like I have added to her folklore and I feel like I’ve maybe galvanized people to defend her a little more than they would have had she not been portrayed in this light.

Jim M. Goldstein
Trying to stay apolitical from my perspective, but do you also think that maybe the converse is true as well, that maybe this galvanized the left?

Naomi
I think that’s true. I think that it has galvanized the left. I do – you know, a lot my friends that were not really involved in a campaign or – sorry involved in – who hadn’t really made a decision about who they’re going to vote for yet. This sort of cemented their decision for them. I guess I am always looking at the other side because you know just looking at the polls – the recent polls and the fact that McCain has been creeping up in the polls. I am always thinking about what factors have been playing a part in that change and so there’s this new found celebrity with this woman and I’ve helped – and I feel like I helped create that celebrity and whether or not it was – you know whether or not it’s helping her or hindering her is up to interpretation.

Jim M. Goldstein
Now, the interesting thing – the underlying word that caught my attention which I think goes back to the photographic side of this is the concept of create. And I think that if a photographer were to put themselves in the shoes of the person whose work you used, regardless of what the political slant might have been, especially when it was unknowing. I’m kind of curious, I mean, that didn’t seem like that it was a thought to you, but from a photographer’s perspective, I would think that that might be alarming that if they have an image out on the Internet that somebody as simple as a Google search or a Flickr search could find something that they could make satire to. So as a creator of parody or satire out of two different images whether they were formally copyright protected or not, I’m kind of curious what your take is on that. If you are generating a message one way or the other, what would you say to a photographer whose work might be used in that way?

Naomi
Really, it always depends on the context. In my case, it has so happened that what I created or what I had put together was in line with what Doctor Casino had in mind for his photo in the first place. If it was going against the grain – his photo was a parody in and of itself and I was just adding to that parody. So, in that case, I feel like I didn’t take away too much from him but I can see in other situations where, for instance, the Kerry scenario that you just brought up, I can see how that would definitely take in differently. It’s on completely the other end of the spectrum.

In terms of what advice I would give to photographers, well, I guess, be more explicit with how you want your picture to be used and whether or not you want permission beforehand. Go ahead, sorry.

Jim M. Goldstein
[24:27] That’s okay. I had a kind of add-on question to that and I think that I’ll just play devil’s advocate, which is easy for me to do as a photographer. So, is the burden on the photographer to lay an outline to how they want their image to be used or do you think that it’s just one of those things that it’s just inferred the type of use you can make just based on the presence of the image online or in a magazine?

Naomi
It’s very hard because once you put that photo out there, it’s hard to monitor where it goes. So, in a way, yes, I think maybe a bit of the burden should be on the photographer depending on the form of the photo but yes, that’s a hard question.

Jim M. Goldstein
And your background with photography is more of a general viewer. You take photographs yourself or…?

Naomi
Sure, personal photographs. Yes, I mean I don’t really post things on the Flickr. I am not that great of a photographer. I wish I could be, then I could have made that photo on my own and not encounter this mess.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay. Now, the other thing is, because I know this is probably burning a hole in the gut of any photographer that may be listening, so, what would your take be if a photo that you took for personal use of a friend or whatnot was used in this fashion. How would you sit on the other side of the fence with that?

Naomi
I think I would probably be okay with that because right – as far as I know, I am very protective over my own personal photos. I don’t – even on Facebook, I have certain privacy settings so only certain people can see certain photos. So, I wouldn’t put anything out there unless I am fine with anyone seeing it or anyone doing what they will with it. So, I am a little different. I am more protective earlier in that process.

Jim M. Goldstein
Given that the viewpoint is that the photographers should be as explicit as possible in what types of use they are willing to allow with their image, and the fact that you personally take a very guarded approach to how your image is released. You’ve, in some fashion you have kind of given guidance to photographers just to be more explicit, but do you tell your friends, not just you, in terms of how guarded you are with your photography when you put it online. Do you share that with other people you know to be wary of having your photos online if you are not okay with them being used or seen?

Naomi
You know I have never had to come across that situation where I had to ask someone to take down any photos of me that I haven’t authorized. No, I guess not. I haven’t come across that kind of situation.

Jim M. Goldstein
[28:00] Okay. But you are not necessarily also warning, say, I don’t know, family members to be, well you may want to be a little careful in putting photos online just because of the nature of how people might use a photo online without their knowledge or that just never comes up in conversation, that’s just more..?

Naomi
It never comes up in conversation.

Jim M. Goldstein
Just assumed?

Naomi
Yeah. It’s just assumed that – as someone, I came from a web background and I am always trying to get my stories out there and heard and – it is hard from my perspective to have anything picked up. So, I just, I guess I just internalized that, that uphill stream and just assumed that it is hard for people to access that kind of information.

Jim M. Goldstein
In regards to how people are guarding against improper use of photos or just the general conservative kind of guarded mentality that you hold for your own images. Do you, do you pay attention to any of the fine print in terms of use for putting photos on Facebook or other social media sites?

Naomi
Not at all. Not at all.

Jim M. Goldstein
Not at all. Now, one of the things that’s kind of interesting about Facebook that – at least it used to be this way, and I would have to check the terms to see if they changed it. But by uploading photos to Facebook, in some regards they actually grab rights of redistribution. And some of that is to make sure that they can create thumbnails and alter the photo and re-purpose it in different formats online. But some of the rights that are noted in the terms of use are actually broad in the sense that they can sell them or re-license them. Kind of broad, which I think a lot of photographers take exception with. Is that – I take it that’s completely new to you?

Naomi
Completely new. That’s the first time I have heard of it.

Jim M. Goldstein
And in context to creating a parody of other people’s photography, how does that sit with you if they were to try to do something like that with that. Would that – if suddenly this photo would appear on the home page of Facebook or a Facebook blog. And how would that sit with you, would you have opposition to it, would you be okay with it? Would you…?

Naomi
I probably would be okay with it so long as, like I said, it is represented in the right context.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay. But not necessarily if it ended up on CafePress mugs or if somebody distributed that.

Naomi
I am actually fine with it. I am fairly free – it is not my likeness being portrayed. So, that’s probably why I can be so generous with its use. It is my opinion and who doesn’t want to have their opinion heard. So, for this particular image I am – I guess that I am fair game. Even if someone was using it for financial gain, I think that’s fine. I think it’s an element of freedom of speech. So, I will be happy for someone to distribute the photo but of course it’s not just my photo, it’s also Doctor Casino’s, so…

Jim M. Goldstein
Yes, and in that regard, do you also see this now as part of – kind of just popular culture and the kind of Internet community at large. Or do you still see it a little bit more from a personal perspective of your creation versus another person’s creation?

Naomi
[31:55] I definitely do see it as a part of a larger popular culture at this point. And now that I see, I mean, the way that it has been interpreted and the way that it has been used, there is no denying that it’s just going to be one of those names that have entered the popular consciousness of people that are online. Even people who are watching television, it’s there.

Jim M. Goldstein
Have you seen it on TV yet?

Naomi
I have seen it on TV. I know CNN. CNN discussed it, they actually thought it was a real photo, one of the correspondents was referring to it. I am not exactly sure what she said but it was along the lines of, you know, “Sarah Palin shouldn’t be out there posing with guns in bikinis. If she wants to shake off this image of being a beauty queen.” And also Craig Ferguson had it on The Late Late Show and Jay Leno discussed that on his show as well. So…

Jim M. Goldstein
Does that blow your mind?

Naomi
Yes, it does blow my mind. Actually, when I spoke, I did get an email from a friend of mine who said that when they think of Sarah Palin, not just them but them and their friends, when they think of Sarah Palin now, that’s the image that gets conjured up in their own minds. And for that to be the new, like, visual heuristic for Sarah Palin, I think that’s insane. I’m sort of blown away by that.

Jim M. Goldstein
One of the thoughts that comes to mind that is kind of an internal debate is I think that if I were to create something like this and put it out there, I would think that lack of control of distribution would be rather exhilarating and pretty cool.

Naomi
It is, it actually is.

Jim M. Goldstein
Whereas if you were the photographer and you had no – your level of control and distribution, you have a different vision of what that photograph was about and how far it would go. So from that perspective, perhaps that lack of control might be seen the opposite way, that actually kind of alarming that it keeps spreading without the initial intent of the photo. Is that something that’s a thought or not really?

Naomi
In terms of photographs, I guess – in terms of photographs it’s different because I don’t feel as much ownership. I don’t feel like it was my sacred brainchild, so to speak. I sort of view photography a little differently and that’s probably why I differ so much with photographers out there. Coming from a writer’s perspective, maybe if someone had taken something I had written and put it out of context or plagiarized my words, that would obviously be a different story. I would definitely take offence to that and I would definitely be wary about where my words are being distributed, if they were being twisted in a way that I had not intended. So, I hope that answers your question.

Jim M. Goldstein
Yes, it does. I guess where I am going with this is that for many photographers, not saying that every Flickr photographer is this way nor is every casual photographer this way. But for some, they do see it as a well-crafted piece of art or something that is very specifically used. So, from that perspective, I know there is going to be a lot of photographers out there that are as you said that, would be muttering like, of course that is the way it is, because there is a lot of photographers that is how they approach their work.

Naomi
Exactly. Yes, I totally understand and I respect that. It is just hard for me to internalize that approach myself.

Jim M. Goldstein
[36:09] And granted, that’s not every photographer, but there are some photographers out there that are looking to make a living off of their the work. And I am not convinced with Doctor Casino is one of those, but I think in context a lot of the recent Photoshopped images that have had an impact in some kind of political election one way or the other, I think that that may become a growing thing.

Now, out of fairness, I think a lot of – most of the images I have seen have come from more of the casual photographer, but anytime you get into the realm of a photograph of somebody in the political spotlight or celebrity, generally those are coming from the people that are actually making a living off of photography. I guess, I am not exactly sure where that thought is going, but I guess the question is in the context that we’ve talked about Doctor Casino quite a bit and that person is more of the casual, but there is also the other side, which is the staff photographer or AP photographer, or whomever took the original picture of Sarah Palin…

Naomi
Right.

Jim M. Goldstein
And that was on the commercial side. I guess if I had to formulate a question out of this little mini rant is if something is online, whether it is coming from the casual photographer or the paid photographer that is working for AP or some other news organization. Perhaps maybe not as a spokesperson for all Internet users, but for yourself, you kind of touched on this is because it is online, does it become of greater or less value for this type of use or how does that sit with you?

Naomi
What do you mean by greater or less value?

Jim M. Goldstein
Well, I mean I think let’s just say I am not hearing that you paid for a stock photo that you…

Naomi
Right.

Jim M. Goldstein
That you edited. You found things that were online. So, if – putting aside the fact that you are unemployed. If you didn’t have any restrictions with income, would you have been as apt to do this if you had to pay for a photograph to alter?

Naomi
Oh, probably not. I probably wouldn’t have. I mean depending on who is paying that, if I were still in my employer and we have – I had an account with several stock photography agencies. Maybe if I didn’t fear any repercussions from my employer. But if I had to pay out of my own pocket, I’d probably be less apt to use something that I’d have to pay for.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay.

Naomi
I probably would look for something that was free to use.

Jim M. Goldstein
But I guess that goes back to my original thought that for celebrities or political folks, even things that are out there…

Naomi
Are commercial, right.

Jim M. Goldstein
Usually. Not all, but usually.

Naomi
No. Yeah, it wasn’t – it definitely wasn’t something that I was thinking about possibly to my detriment and I can imagine all the photographers are going to be writing to you angry with my responses but it was not something I was thinking about. And I’d probably, if I encountered the picture again, not knowing that this would be the result, I’d probably still use it without permission.

Jim M. Goldstein
So, you wouldn’t necessarily do things differently then.

Naomi
Probably not.

Jim M. Goldstein
[40:16] And there is no judgment passed there. I think that’s just based on individual experience and motivation and I think there is worse things that could have happened but I…

Naomi
I mean I probably would’ve asked if I’d known it would get us far out as it did, I’d definitely have asked Doctor Casino for his permission to use his photograph. As for the commercial side which is a little different, I don’t know if I’d have asked for permission. And that’s more of a – because I’d feel like there is a little bit more restriction.

Jim M. Goldstein
If there was an easier path to make use of the photo, would that have made a difference?

Naomi
Yes, definitely.

Jim M. Goldstein
Well, I think this is one of the rare instances where I as an interviewer turn the tables. As somebody who doesn’t have a greater degree of knowledge in regards to intellectual property around photography, as a person that modified two images to make something that had a little bit of a punch to it in regards to political commentary. What questions do you have for photographers or for people that make images, do you have any?

Naomi
That make images, not off the top of my head. Maybe I can e-mail you those questions as they come to me but not off the top of my head.

Jim M. Goldstein
Okay.

Naomi
Yeah.

Jim M. Goldstein
Just wanted to see. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this. I do think it’s a very interesting meme that’s developed and the general responses to the photograph and to the creation and to the conversations around the intellectual property side of this has been something that has been very interesting to see develop and I think it’s only the beginning. So, maybe – who knows maybe in the future we can touch base and see where this goes X weeks out from where things are now. For the sake of this conversation, thank you very much for taking the time to talk.

Naomi
Thank you for having me and providing me this forum to come forward.

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